From Attorney to Inmate: Pastor James Smith's Powerful Story of Redemption, Faith & Second Chances

Once a highly respected attorney with his love for gambling, ended up robbing a bank—and went on to become a pastor of a church for 32 years.

In this jaw-dropping inspirational episode, Reginald D sits down with Pastor James Smith—a former North Carolina attorney turned pastor, author, and host of the Deal By Me Podcast. Once the youngest practicing Black attorney in NC and the only Black attorney in his hometown, Pastor Smith’s life spiraled after a love for gambling led to devastating consequences—including the shocking decision to rob a bank.

But this story isn’t about crime—it’s about comeback.

Pastor Smith opens up about the emotional and spiritual breakdown behind his decision, the reality of incarceration, and the incredible transformation that followed. From working at a service station post-prison to becoming a teacher for the NC Bar Association to a seminary graduate, and podcast host, his journey is a masterclass in redemption, faith, and resilience. If you’ve ever questioned whether your past disqualifies your future—this episode is your answer.

• Discover how vulnerability, faith, and accountability can fuel life-altering transformation.
• Learn how to overcome addiction, shame, and public failure to reclaim purpose.
• Gain practical wisdom on responsibility, redemption, and how God uses brokenness to birth greatness.

Press play now to witness a raw, unforgettable inspirational conversation that proves no mistake is too big for a comeback when faith leads the way.

Dr. Smith's Links:

Deal By Me Podcast - https://www.buzzsprout.com/2000235/episodes 

Purchase his book on Amazon:

Deal By Me: A Golden Opportunity - https://www.amazon.com/Deal-Me-Golden-Opportunity-Blown/dp/1434361233

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Transcript

Welcome to Real Talk with Reginald D. I'm your host, Reginald D. On today's episode, I have Pastor James Smith. He's a retired North Carolina pastor and author and the host of the Deal By Me podcast. Pastor Smith was once a practicing North Carolina attorney with a life-changing story of overcoming adversity and becoming a powerful force of hope, healing, and second chances. Welcome to the show, Pastor Smith.

Thank you very much. I'm glad to be with you.

Yes, sir, absolutely. So, Pastor Smith, can you share some insights into your upbringing in North Carolina and what inspired you to pursue a career in law?

Well, yeah, I don't mind doing that. I tell people I was just a country lawyer. And, of course, I robbed a bank and received a 15-year sentence, of which I served five years in the Federal Correctional Institution. Now, prior to that time, I was living in Lewisburg, North Carolina. I was red and spent some of my time in New York with my mom. I went to elementary school, but came back down here and finished elementary school and high school and went off to college at North Carolina Central University. And from there, I entered into the school on a combined program. I was on my last year in undergraduate school and my first year in law school. We could do that at North Carolina Center at the time. So I graduated in 1967 from undergraduate school and one year law school and finished law school in 1969. And from there, you know, I went on to pass the bar. I started practicing law in my hometown, Lewisburg, North Carolina. And at that time, I was the first and only African-American lawyer practicing in my hometown. The youngest African-American lawyer at the time practicing in the state of North Carolina. So that's kind of my beginning. You know, I can share further any questions that you want to ask me. My life is open book, so I don't try to hide anything. I just open it up because I'm hoping that folk can learn from my experience and know how you can come back from certain situations in your life.

Yes, sir. Absolutely. Absolutely. So let's go back to when you first started practicing law, the challenges and triumphs that you experienced first being the first African-American attorney in your hometown and being like one of the youngest one in the state.

Well, I don't know that there was a whole lot of challenges. There was a little racism still. I had to overcome some of that. I remember some incident in Henderson where I had to deal with a little racism. But in Lewisburg, I was treated, you know, really good because I think nobody wanted to mess with the first African-American lawyer who came into the town. And that was my hometown, too. So, you know, my family was well known. And so from that viewpoint, you know, I was okay. Now, you always experience some, in those early years, a little racism when you go into other cities, people don't know you. And, you know, you can tell that they don't want to really believe that you're a lawyer, you know, don't want to treat you like that until you kind of demand it. But that was back in the early 70s. But I overcame all that. That was a real big problem for me. I just got off into something that I regret now, and that was gambling. And as a result of that, kind of lost my focus and really messed up and lost my law license. And so that was all on me. It had nothing to do with what I was encountering in terms of my practice.

So let's talk about that. When did you first recognize that gambling was becoming a problem for you and how did it affect your personal and professional life?

Well, let me put it this way. I started gambling with other lawyers, some of the older lawyers in the area, down in Warrington, some barbers, you know, very professional people, so it wasn't with any, you know, people that we'd be a little afraid to play with. little professionals. And of course, everybody just had fun. We just had, I mean, all kinds of fun. You know, we went on a rotation where we would leave from playing one city one weekend, next city the next weekend, and vice versa, all the way around. And of course, wherever we went, you know, the host was gracious. We, you know, served the drinks, you know, had food, all you got to do is eat all you want to. You know, sofa, you sit back and go to sleep, rest for an hour, then get back into the poker game. I mean, it was just lots of, lots of fun. And we talked about cases. I talked about, you know, people who came into the barber shop, somebody that they had to barn out. You know, just a whole lot of just good times and good fun. And of course, I won and I lost, you know, money doing it in the beginning. It was really, really fun. And we never worried about where we was going to get the money from. If I lost all my money, one of my law friends or one of the barbers or whoever would just loan you whatever you wanted, because they know that next week they was going to get it back and vice versa. And that's the way we played. So it became lots of fun. I was winning and losing, but then it got to the point where it became, I would say, a love for it. And that love was overpowering my sense of really knowing when to fold and when to get up and all that type of stuff. In the beginning, I knew when to do that, and I knew how to do it. But then it got to the point where I just fell in love with the game and kind of went overboard. And when I knew anything, I was going downhill, lost my home, lost properties that I had accumulated. I lost my wife of five years. And of course, you know, and obviously I committed this crazy and stupid crime. And that's what happened. But, you know, that was a part of what I had to go through. I went through it. I came out of it. And, of course, that's been... I came out in 1986. And, of course, since that time, it's been all about pulling my life back together. I think I've done a pretty good job.

Yes, sir. Absolutely. You have. So, you was talking about when you was gambling, you win some, you lose some, and then when you lose, you are from, you know, there was other lawyers, attorneys, or barbers, or all the people that was involved. But then it got to a point where you started losing, I guess, big. You got, I guess, you know, with properties and all that stuff and got in so much, you know, I guess, gambling debt. What factors contributed to the escalation of that from borrowing from them to getting all this debt from all this other stuff?

I can't say that. I'm not sure if I know the answer to that. You know, I guess it was like any other habit that you really love. You don't know how to cut it loose. You know, you get to the point where you lose a thousand dollars. and then you borrow another 500 thinking you can win that $1,000 back, and then you done lost that. That's when you get to the point where the love for it overpowers your sense of knowing that, look, I've lost all I need to lose tonight. I'm not gonna lose it anymore. Or I can't break the house, so I may as well go home with my $1,500. You follow what I'm trying to say? That kind of thing in the beginning, but then when it gets to the point that gets in your kind of, I don't know, psyche, if you might want to call. You're loving it. You hate to get up. You know, I stayed at poker games from Friday evenings when I got off from work all the way to Monday morning rushing back to get to court. So that's how we played poker.

Yeah, he was all in.

All in, all in.

All in. Yep, all in. Can you walk us through the events leading to the bank robbery and what was going through your mind at the time? I heard you on a podcast, there was multiple things going through your mind at that time, not just the bank robbery.

Well, yeah. At that particular time, I was just so messed up in my mind. And my head, my thought patterns, you know, I wasn't thinking logically. And I just got up one morning and I reached into the side drawer and pulled out my 22 caliber pistol, went to the office and sat in the office and literally I was thinking in terms of committing suicide. I just felt like I had just gone down. Wife, we've separated. Me and my former partners have gone our separate ways all because of my gambling. All my properties that I had gone, I borrowed money on us and foreclosure and all this type of stuff. And I just felt like, boy, this is it. I think the only reason I didn't do that was because of my mom. I'm an only child to a single mom, and we were very close. And I started thinking about her, you know, what my mom was going to do, and, you know, all kinds of thoughts come to your mind. And so I just closed up the office and just got in the car and started riding and thought about it a couple times. After I got an old 85, I stopped it right in front of a transfer truck, but I didn't, you know, but you know, all this stuff, crazy stuff comes with your mind. And when I knew the thing, I had ended up in Oxford, North Carolina. at a restaurant, because it was early in the morning, it was about 10, I guess, 10.30. And I decided to get me something to eat. And I was hungry. It's hard to really describe it, but you know, you just, everything just crossing through your mind. You know, I'm not going to do this. How am I going to do that? And I was eating and I looked out the window and that was a CCB bank. And then, of course, craziest things start crossing my mind. I mean, you know, well, if you go in and you can just get $50,000, $100,000, you could pay off all your debts and you would come back and you could just start life all over again and you could be, you know, free and nobody would ever know anything about what went on. Crazy thinking now, so I don't want you to think that now this is crazy thinking, but I'm trying to tell you how you're thinking at that point. And so I went through all kind of, I don't know what you might call it, all kind of thoughts. And eventually, I rode my bike, looking at it, looking at it, then went to the city. And then eventually, I just said, heck with it. And as I wrote in my first book, I said, heck with it. Get caught or not. I jumped out, went in, and said, give me your money. And of course, that was the end of that. left, pulled off. And of course, you know, obviously, eventually, you know, I got charged, arrested, went off to the, they sent me to the mental hospital, the orthopedics mental hospital for six weeks of observation. And of course, I stayed three weeks, came out, and of course, was out on bond for about six months. And in January, the first month in January of 1987, I'm sorry, 1981, Yeah, 81. Well, that's when it happened, 81. But 82 is when I went to trial, January 82. And of course, I got the 15-year sentence and served five years in the correctional institution.

Yeah, and you said something that was very powerful to me, just walking through your story. Those people will look at something like, I can look at it and say, hey, you know, to rob the bank, or anybody to rob the bank. they never know the person's mental mindset and the process and all the other stuff they thought about before they actually did the one thing that people talk about. You know, it's a lot into it. People just wake up and go down and rob a bank, it wasn't like that. You know, you had all these other thoughts, suicide and these things like that, and then one thing just led to another. What did people think when they found out you robbed a bank and you were an attorney? I know it shocked them, right?

Oh, I'm sort of did. It was a shock to a whole lot of folk. I think that's the reason they sent me to the Dorothea Dixon Hospital, because lawyers, friends and everybody in the area just couldn't believe it. So, obviously, the first thing they thought was, Lloyd must have had a mental breakdown, you know, so we need to send him to Dr. Dix for evaluation. So, yeah, people were really shocked. I mean, there was no question about that. I mean, newspaper articles and everything you can think of, you know, it was just unusual, you know. doing what I did, you know, that's just not a common thing. So it's, you know, everybody, yeah, they asked you a question, everybody was shocked.

Yes, I bet they were. I bet they were. So, Pastor Smith, how did your time in prison influence your perspective on life and faith when you were in there?

Well, let me back up because I always have to put this in perspective. You see, my mom was a dedicated Christian. very dedicated, committed Christian. I've always been in church. I wasn't always the most faithful and the, I guess, the most dedicated, committed Christian like my mom was, but I went to church. And when I was young, mom took me to church. So I was in Sunday school. So I knew what it was like. And so when this happened to me, I was at Dorothy Dix Hospital. And while I was at Dorothy Dix Hospital, this was before I got my sentence, those three weeks were just three weeks of real reflection. I mean, serious reflection. Like, how in the world did I get here? How did I do what I did? I just can't believe it. I'm going through all this in my head and in my mind. And I just started praying. I asked the Lord to help me get through it. And I made the commitments that all the stuff that I was doing, you know, gambling, you know, even at that time, you know, socializing with drinking and, you know, all the crazy little stuff, womanizing, all of that that I was doing at that time. I made this commitment that that was it. It's all over. I'm finished. And believe me, I can say with honesty, to this point, to this day, it was all over. That was before I even went in. And so after I got out of the mental hospital, I got a job, you know, obviously I couldn't go back to practice a lot, so one of my friends gave me a job at a service station. I worked there for a short while, then Another gentleman who was on the county commissioner, who owned a supermarket in Henderson, gave me a job. And when I say a job, I don't mean something fancy. I mean just something where I could make a little money. And the job working with him was behind the cashier bagging groceries and taking them out to the car with, you know, with my former clients, family, friends. And when I was working at the service station, it was pumping gas and washing windshields. So humility set in. You know, you really start thinking about, gee, you know, I thought I was up on cloud nine when I was practicing law, and look what I'm doing now. And it's just something about those kinds of things that begin to work on you. And I began to just really start thinking seriously, meditating, and I felt the call to the ministry. And of course, I told my mom about it. And she said, well, you want to talk with your pastor? And so I did. I called my pastor. And I guess this was probably about four months afterwards, maybe five months. I went to see him while I was out. And I told him my thought, my thinking. And I felt called to pastor. It ain't a missionary, a Baptist church. we have to do what you call a trial sermon or initial sermon." And I told him that I knew I was going to get some time. I had made myself very content with that. That wasn't even bothering me anymore. I said, now I know I'm going to get some time, and I don't want people to think that I'm doing this to kind of get a short sentence, so I'd rather wait until I get out to do my trial sermon. He said, no, no, don't do that. If you feel the call, you want to do your trial sermon. And now, because you don't know, the Lord might have something for you to do while you're confined. You know, he said, there are people who are going to need a word from you where you are. And I accepted what he was saying, and sure enough, that's the way it really happened. I did my trial sermon. The first Sunday in January and that Monday following the trial sermon, I went to Fayetteville and got this 15-year sentence. I was just as comfortable. Now, my mom, you know, it really set her back. But for me, I was just as comfortable. All I wanted to do was get it behind me because I knew where I was going. I knew where my life was going to take me. I felt very comfortable. I just wanted to get it out of the way and come back and prove myself that, look, what you did was not really you. And that's what I did.

Wow. That's an awesome story. You know, it's one thing that's got so much power is when you surrendered to God. When you said that, all right, I'm done with it. I'm over it, then God said, okay, now I can use you. And that's just the way it works. And I've heard you on another podcast and you mentioned something about going to speak to some people that had gambling problems at a facility somewhere. And I guess they decided not to allow you to do it because they kept calling your attic, I guess it was, and you were like, no, man, I'm over this.

Yeah, I can speak to that. See, in my first book, Deal By Me, the Golden Opportunity to Belong, and the title came from Mike Gamblin. I always like to tell people that, you know, when you don't want your next hand, you should deal by me. And that meant, look, totally, I'm finished with it, okay? So, and obviously, the golden opportunity to belong was the fact that I lost my right to practice law. But I thought in the beginning that I was a compulsive gambler. I really felt that that was what caused me to get to where I was. But after I had been out for a while and called the Gambling Anonymous, as a matter of fact, it was the house right in Chapel Hill, you know. And I wanted to go over and talk with the guys. And so I felt like, you know, what I had gone through, I could really share with them. You know, I thought I could really help get them right on the right track. And the manager or director, whoever it was, asked me if I was still a compulsive gambler. I said, no. I'm finished. I don't gamble at all now. No more poker in my life. Period. I'm finished." And he said to me, well, I'm not sure if the guys would want to hear from you, because we just believe and we teach that once a compulsive gambler, always a compulsive gambler. Same concept as an alcoholic. Same concept. You know, once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic. Well, I didn't argue with him, but I just knew I was no longer a gambler. You know, I knew that. Period. He couldn't tell me the difference. And so I started thinking about it. And during the COVID, I started writing my second book, which is Dearby Me, a second edition. And I wanted to do a self-evaluation of my life, you know, to get to the point where I said, Well, maybe I wasn't where I thought I was. Let me just really pull everything together. And I just eventually came to the conclusion that I was not a compulsive gambler, but that I was really afraid to fail. Follow me? Now I'm going to tell you why I came to that conclusion. I was just, and I'm not boasting, but people who knew me back then, They would tell you I was a very, very good lawyer. I represented some people. I had a rape case, murder case. I won something on the Supreme Court. I practiced in the federal court. My 10 years were just awesome in terms of my ability to know what I was doing. And I was on top of the world. I was really on top of the world, but the gambling kind of got me to the point where I lost focus of what I was doing. And then I was going downhill. And I think what happened, I was afraid of failure because I didn't want anybody to see me get to the bottom. And that was it. And I thought I could recoup. And that's what I did, thinking I could recoup. Now it's crazy, you know, but that's where I was. So that's the reason I came to the conclusion that I was not a compulsive gambler, but rather I was afraid to fail. And I still believe that even to this day.

And that makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot of sense. I don't believe once you're something, you're always something. If you change, you change. That's it. That's why the word change is out there. And when God has changed you, you're definitely not the same person. So you can't put that label on anybody like that. So what inspired you to start the Deal By Me podcast? And what message do you hope to convey through it?

Well, when I started my podcast, I had been at Mount Calvary, my church. I had intended to retire after 30 years, but then COVID came. And when COVID came, they wanted me to stay on until we could get through COVID. And so at the end of 2022, it would have been 32 years for me. at my church. And so I told them that I thought I was going to believe in that day and that year. But about six months or seven months before that time, I started thinking about, I want to continue my ministry. I want to continue to do something that I thought would be beneficial and helpful to others. And so I looked at podcasting. I said, if I can get this out, you know, and I want to do it, you know. The theory of it wasn't to tell us your story, but it was going to be about encouraging, inspiring, and transforming. And I saw it as a continuation of my ministry. So I just started doing a little research to find out what I needed to do. So that's how I got that started. And of course, obviously, I've been doing it ever since. That was about August, about June or July of 2022. And I've been doing it ever since. And of course, great guests. I have awesome guests on it. And I'm appearing on other podcasters. But I have some great guests. I've interviewed people in over 10 countries, I know, at this point. I just looked at my sheet, and I've already done 262 episodes. So it's going good. I can't complain.

Yes, sir. You're definitely doing it. Looking back though, what do you believe were the pivotal moments that led you to your transformation? Because I look at it now, and you were like, You've came out of incarceration and you have done so much and so well that most people who haven't even been incarcerated probably never reached where you've been. So what do you think led to that transformation?

Well, number one, when I got out, one of the things my mom said to me, and my mom had always had a lot of faith in me, and she said to me, she said, son, you can go lie in the ditch. All people are going to do is come by and just kick more dirt on you. And she said, rub your head in the sand, and all folks are going to do is just push your head further in the sand. She said, but if you would just get up out of the ditch, and take your head out of the sand, some of the same people who are going to just mess over you will give you a helping hand. And so I kind of took that advice. You know, I didn't stop. I came to the halfway house. And when I came to the halfway house, the next day you had to have a job. The next day, I went to the courthouse because, you know, obviously, law was still something that I felt comfortable that I could help somebody out. I went to the courthouse and I saw Buddy Malone. And I don't know if you remember that name. He was a former lawyer here in Durham. He passed now. He used to call him C.C. Buddy Malone. And I saw him and I told him, I just said, Buddy, I need a job. Well, he knew me. He knew my reputation. And so he said, Smitty, come by the office tomorrow. So I went by his office on the next day, and he gave me a job. So I started working with him as a law clerk. And I worked with him for about six years. While I was working with him, I knew I had been called to the ministry, so I wanted to really kind of move forward in that area. So I made an application to Southeastern Theological Seminary. And when I made the application, they turned me down the first time. And that was a little hurtful, because in my mind I was thinking that, you know, If anybody wanted to give somebody an opportunity, it should be a seminary, you know. Those were my thoughts. But I didn't let it get me. I said, well, I'm going to apply for the next semester. So I applied the next semester, and they accepted me. So that started my seminary. And of course, during that span, I was called to Mount Calvary Missionary Baptist Church in Bahama, which nobody expected that would happen. People laugh now and say, how in the world can a bank robber get to pass a church for 32 years? But that's what I did. And another thing that I did, nobody thought that it would happen. I went to Henderson, and one of my law friends, a white gentleman, he told me, he said, Smitty, you need to see if you can do continual education for the North Carolina State Bar. He said, because lawyers need to hear your story and just know how one can come back if they've made errors and what have you. And he said, Jim Blackburn is doing it. Well, Jim Blackburn was a white lawyer who had embezzled lots of money from his law firm, but the bar allowed him to teach continual education to lawyers across the state. And he was the only disbarred lawyer that was doing that. And so I told my friend, I said, I didn't know Jim personally. So I said, well, but Jim, crime is not violent. Mine is violent. So I don't think they'll let me. And so I came back and talked to my wife. My wife now, as a matter of fact, July will be 35 years. So I talked with her and she told me, she said, well, honey, You don't have your license anyway, so they can't do it." I said, no, you know. I said, well, that's right. So I called over there. I called through the state bar, and the state bar asked me had I talked with Jim Blackburn. I said, no. So they told me, you might want to talk with him. So I did. I called Jim. They gave me his number, I called him, and we had breakfast together in Raleigh, and he told me what I needed to do. I did it, and I sent all my information in to the State Bar. You're going to like this story now. I sent all my information in to the State Bar, and of course they got back with me and told me that within three weeks that I should have an answer. And at the end of that three weeks, I had not heard anything from them. In my mind, I kind of felt like they probably was not going to let me do CLE for the state bar. But I didn't let it stop me, because in my mind, I kept seeing them seeing an African-American lawyer who robbed a bank. That was not a pretty sight. You understand where I'm coming from? What they were seeing was not a pretty sight. So I got dressed. I put on my three-piece suit. I got shaved, nice haircut, and I told my wife, I said, I'm going over to the North Carolina State Bar. I went over to the North Carolina State Bar. I asked to see someone that was in the continual legal education department. They sent this lady down, and when she came down and looked at me, honestly, this is true, I could tell right then that her whole demeanor had changed, and I felt very confident that I was going to get approved as a sponsor. She said to me, she said, uh, Dr. Smith, she said, just give us another couple of days. He said, I know within five, three to five days, you ought to hear something. Within three to five days, I got a letter telling me, congratulations, you have been chosen as a sponsor of continual education for the North Carolina State Bar. I was the only African American lawyer, and Jim was the white person. We were the only two in the state of North Carolina that was disbarred, that they allowed to teach continual legal education. I went all over the state, talking to white lawyers, all kinds, old, young. I taught ethics, mental health, and substance abuse. And I did it for 11 years, probably would still be doing it now if COVID had not come in. When COVID came in, I stopped because I didn't want to continue to drive over the state while COVID was in. I didn't know what would be going on. So I gave it up. But that's what I did. I thought that was a good little story to tell you how you have to keep on doing stuff with that and seminary. You just can't stop. You just got to say, look, I'm going to do it. I know the Lord is with me. I ain't gonna stop, and I'm gonna do this." And that's what I did.

Yes, I love that story. You can't give up. I tell anybody that. You can't give up. You being relentless in what you want. God honors that. People don't understand that. If you wouldn't have put that three-piece suit on and went down there, You know, that probably would have never happened.

That's right. That's right. It wouldn't have. I feel confident it would not have happened. I would have just gotten a letter saying, Sam, we're sorry, but at this time, we're not able to approve you as a sponsor. I can see the letter. But I wasn't going to let that happen. You might do it, but you're going to do it after you see me. You understand what I'm saying? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, you're going to get all of me before you make your decision.

That's exactly right.

Yeah. OK, well, pass me what advice would you offer individuals that struggling with some type of addiction or seeking path to redemption?

Well, number one, one of the first things I tell people all the time is to accept responsibility. You know, whatever you have done or you're going through, you know, accept it. Say, look, man, I messed up. You know, whether you got into drinking that caused something to happen to you or whatever that situation, I messed up. And of course, you know, obviously I just talked about, you know, don't be afraid to fail. So, you know, that's another. And then confront your source. Just deal with what it is that you got to deal with and get it behind you. Don't be afraid to face the consequences of whatever it is. If you've done something or you're trying to overcome a situation, just go ahead and confront it and get it out the way and you find yourself being a better person. Now, there's two things, two statements I give to anybody, though, that I think is really the part I feel like applies to almost anybody. And that is, in life, stay focused and stay ethical. I think you will be able to survive. My state focus is, in my life, I lost focus. Simple as that. Other folks might see it different, but I lost focus. And ethical, you started not being honest, you start lying to yourself, you start, you know, you lose your integrity, you know, your marriage life started falling apart and you start lying to your wife, you know, that's the ethical part. But if you can stay focused and stay ethical, a lot of the other stuff will fall in place. I've just come to that conclusion.

Yeah, that's it. Absolutely. That is the God honest truth right there. So lastly, Pastor Smith, how can my listeners listen to your podcast and purchase your books?

Well, all my books, you can get them from Amazon, Dear By Me, A Golden Opportunity to Belong is on Amazon. Well, Dear By Me is not at Amazon, but if you put it in and put my name inside it, you can purchase it. But Deal By Me, Our Self Evaluation is one of Amazon's books, the second edition. So just go to Amazon, pick them up, and get them. I had a website, but I won't get anything. Most people who would get my books would just go on to Amazon, so I didn't even worry about the website. So I just tell folk now, go to Amazon and pick them up. They would enjoy it. I mean, I've got all kinds of comments, on both of those books, really. And of course, I also wrote another book, which is Come Let Us Reason Together. That book was just written as a result of my becoming the moderator for the General Mapp State Convention. The president at the time wanted me to work with churches that had conflict, you know, like problems with, you know, the pastor or what have you. And so I wrote a book that deals with that, which is I have all kinds of little issues in there that people would deal with in the missionary Baptist church. And that's Come Let Us Reason Together, which is also on Amazon. 

There you have it, Pastor Jay Smith. Thank you, sir, for taking time out of your schedule to talk with us today. It's been an amazing, it's been amazing, man. The journey is really something that needs to be heard. And I thank you so much. And I thank God for you and let him allow you to tell your story because some people have these journeys and they still can't be embarrassed by it, I guess, or don't know how to use it, you know, or things like that. But thank you for being so open because you're touching a lot of lives. I know. 

. Thank you very much. I appreciate you. 

Yes, sir. Thanks for tuning in Real Talk with Reginald D. If you enjoyed Real Talk with Reginald D, please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. See you next time.